A series of court battles will decide the outcome of some of these conflicts. For now, it’s unclear how Trump’s second tenure in the White House will change America and if the president and his allies can succeed in moving the country to the right. One group involved in responding is the American Civil Liberties Union. In Rhode Island, the local ACLU chapter has kept a close eye on the General Assembly for years. So can the civil liberties group still do that while standing up to the Trump administration? And how is the outlook for safeguarding civil liberties and small-d democracy? This week on Political Roundtable, I’m going in depth with executive director of the Rhode Island ACLU Steven Brown.
TRANSCRIPT
This transcript has been edited for clarity
Donnis: President Trump has been in office for almost four months now. He has aggressively pushed the bounds of executive power. People and groups, including the ACLU have pushed back. How would you evaluate the outlook right now for civil liberties and small-d democracy?
Brown: I think it’s in a bit of trouble. Right now the courts are providing an important bulwark. There’ve been lots of really important court decisions pushing back on a lot of the things that the Trump administration has been doing in a wide variety of areas, and they’re affecting everybody. Here in Rhode Island the ACLU has been involved in three lawsuits already challenging various actions that the Trump administration has taken. I mean, they’re on a full court press to take away some really, very fundamental civil rights and civil liberties. And I think for a lot of people it’s unclear exactly where this is all going to end up. But I think we know that vigilance is absolutely crucial
Donnis: You mentioned the courts, to what extent do you have confidence that the courts will be an effective backstop if Trump tries to over exceed his steps?
Brown: Well, right now I think the courts have been an important backstop. There have been literally dozens of court decisions around the country that have rejected various activities that the Trump administration has engaged in. I think in the next month or two, we’ll see where the United States Supreme Court lies with all this, because they’re the ultimate backstop. And if the Supreme Court starts backing up some of the things that the Trump administration has been doing that the lower courts have found to be unconstitutional or unlawful, then I think we’re really in trouble. Because right now, the legislature is not acting as a backstop. Obviously the executive branch being run by the Trump administration is just essentially doing whatever it wants to. So ultimately it will be up to the courts.
Donnis: And when you say the legislature, you mean Congress?
Brown: Yes. Congress is letting the Trump administration do what it wants to do rather than serving as the check that they should be in these particular circumstances. So the only branch of government that’s left is the courts.
Donnis: Your chapter of the ACLU is involved in at least one immigration case, and immigration was a potent issue for Trump’s election last year. Critics of the president say that his deportation program raises foundational issues of due process, but the president seems to be banking on a notion that Americans are on his side of the issue. Does that raise a concern for you as a civil libertarian?
Brown: Well, it certainly does, but I think you’re seeing some pushback even from the public. I mean, I think you’re right that maybe in generic terms they support what the Trump administration is doing, but when they look at the specifics there’s been a lot of concern and consternation and legitimately so. I mean, when you see a young Tufts University student confronted by hooded agents, whisked off into an unmarked car solely because she wrote an op-ed that was critical of government policy, that causes a lot of people concern. And that is what is going on in this country right now. And I don’t think that the majority of the public thinks that that is the way to implement immigration policy, even if they think there should be crackdowns on it.
Donnis: Universities have been another high-profile target for the Trump administration. There were reports that Brown University could be at risk of losing $510 million in federal funding. What kind of recourse is there for a university like Brown if that happens?
Brown: Yeah, again, like so many other things that the Trump administration is doing, the ultimate recourse is to the courts. The actions that the Trump administration is taking, we think. In these particular areas, we think raise very basic first Amendment concerns. They’re essentially retaliating against these institutions solely because of the views they hold, failing to accept the views that the Trump administration wants them to accept. And we’re seeing it not just in universities, but as you know, there’ve been a lot of big law firms that have been threatened with having security clearances taken away. And you’ve seen some of them back down. But in all those instances, we think that there are very strong constitutional arguments that can be raised that the Trump administration simply does not have the authority, does not have the right to take these sort of retaliatory actions against institutions, organizations or individuals solely because he disagrees with their views.
Donnis: We’re going to turn our attention to some state-based issues shortly, but I want to ask you how you see the outlook for voting rights under the Trump administration.
Brown: Well, again, this is an area where the Trump administration has made clear it it would like to cut back on voting rights. President Trump issued an executive order a few weeks ago that has already been challenged and held back as a result of a temporary restraining order issued by a court. There is movement in Congress in the Republican dominated Congress to pass a law that would also significantly cut back on voting rights. Whether it passes remains to be seen. If it does pass, I’m sure you will see an immediate constitutional challenge to it, but just about any basic area of civil rights, including voter rights, we’re seeing efforts by this administration to try to suppress or cut back on what have been very basic rights for decades.
Donnis: The Rhode Island ACLU was among an array of groups last year that backed efforts to modernize the state’s open records law, the access to public records act that did not move forward. How do you see the outlook this year?
Brown: Well, we’re certainly making another strong push to get this, this reform bill passed. It’s been over 12 years since the legislature took a close look at the open records law and revised it. Since that time, there have been lots of loopholes, ambiguities that have been found. The two sponsors of the Bill Senator diPalma in the Senate and Representative Serpa in the house I know are working hard to try to get the bill passed. And we’re certainly hoping that this will be the year you know, especially when you see again, what’s going on at the national level with the Trump administration essentially firing the employees who are responsible for responding to open records requests, the Federal Freedom of Information Act. It’s all the more important that state open records laws be as transparent as possible so people can get information.
Donnis: We’re talking here with Steven Brown, executive director of the Rhode Island ACLU, and there are about six or seven or eight weeks left in the legislative session. What are other top issues from your perspective at the General Assembly this year?
Brown: Well, there are certainly a number of really important, proactive bills that we’re supporting that we hope will make it to passage. One major priority of us and the immigrant coalition of which we’re a part is a bill that’s known as a 364 day bill. It’s designed to protect immigrants in this country from unfair deportations. Certainly a timely issue in light of what is going on in the Trump administration. Rhere’s the Freedom to Read act which we’re strongly supporting. Which would prevent censorship of public libraries and school libraries in response to some incidents that have occurred here in Rhode Island. There’s a big push to amend the state constitution in terms of same day voter registration. You know, we’ve talked about voting rights. So there are a lot of good bills that we’re working with coalitions on and hope to see at least some of them pass.
Donnis: I did a story recently looking at how voters feel in Burrillville, which was Donald Trump’s top Rhode Island community in terms of voting percentage last year. My hunch is that many more viewers get their information these days from Fox News than they did back in the day from the Providence Journal and the Woonsocket Call. Do you agree with that analysis and is that a concern for you?
Brown: I think that is true. I think it’s unfortunate. I mean, we all know that mainstream media are having lots of difficulties. It certainly isn’t helped by what the Trump administration is doing. I mean, talking about cutbacks to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and so forth decimating the Voice of America. So yes, I mean, you know, the importance of a media that is strong, that is able to present the news objectively is critical, and we’re losing that. And that is, you know, a very serious problem in this country.
Donnis: And the Cooperation for Public Broadcasting provides some support for local stations like the Public’s Radio and Rhode Island PBS. I wanna ask you about money in politics. It seems like since the Citizens United decision about 15 years ago, there’s very little hope of changing the situation and it seems to foster two main effects. It seems to foster a belief among everyday people that their influence is little to none on politics, and there’s no hope of changing the situation. From your perspective, is there any hope of changing the influence of money in politics, or at least how people respond to that?
Brown: Well, I think that’s putting a little too much weight on what Citizens United did. I think money in politics has always been a problem in this country. It remains a problem. We’ve always recommended strong public financing as a way to try to deal with the problem of too much money in politics. Ultimately it takes the public raising their concerns. And will it ever be an ideal way to run campaigns? No. But I think the public needs to do what it can to make politicians aware that they’re being followed and presenting their views to them.
Donnis: As someone who spends a lot of time watching the Rhode Island General Assembly, what do you consider the most effective ways in which citizens can make their voices heard, either on state or federal issues?
Brown: Well, I think one of the really good things about the general Assembly is the availability of information on their website. The fact that all committee meetings are now televised. The fact that testimony, written testimony is put online. I mean, these are really good things, and it gives the public an opportunity not only to know what happened, what is happening but to get involved, to submit testimony themselves if they don’t want to show up to the State House or can’t show up to the State House. But that really is critical. I think too often we throw up our hands and say everything’s rigged, everything’s decided, but the people really can make a difference. But it takes some effort.
Donnis: And on federal issues.
Brown: The same thing on federal issues. Our congressional delegation, at least from our perspective, is generally very good on civil rights and civil liberties issues. But again when, when the public takes the opportunity and the time to contact them it can have an impact.
